A Conversation With Justin Giboney
President of the “AND Campaign” and co-author of “Compassion & Conviction”
November 5, 2023
Bear Clifton
Justin, you say in your book that we have to increase our civic literacy. What are some ways, as followers of Christ, that we can do that?
Justin Giboney
The number one way to increase civic literacy, which means just better understanding civics and being able to engage in a better way, is just staying informed. And one thing we talked about with the AND campaign is we talk about “media hygiene”.
So, you don’t ever want to be in a situation where you’re always listening to the same people and you’re kind of in an echo chamber, right? So, whether you listen to Fox News or MSNBC – where I recommend, don’t listen to cable news at all – but it’s your choice. You want to make sure that you’re hearing out different sides of the conversation, right?
In my opinion, there are people who are intellectually honest on both sides of the aisle. That doesn’t mean I agree with them, but they’re trying to get it right and they’re fairly smart. You need to find somebody on both sides to do that. Again, not because you’re going to agree with them, but so you can get the whole story. And too often we kind of get in our echo chambers and we have what they call “confirmation bias”, where we listen to the people that just tell us what we wanted to hear anyway, and interpret every fact-pattern in the way that we want to hear.
Christians, we can’t do that. We want to know the whole story. We want to know the truth. And so we should try to get it from, not even just two sources, but as many sources as we can. But there should be some go-tos that are not just on the left or the right. I think that’d be helpful to you.
Bear
Well, and this is a good follow-up for that and I appreciate that answer. Somebody wrote this, “Our Christian testimony in the past presidential election was not exactly stellar.” That’s putting it mildly. “What are some things followers of Christ can do differently this time around? As we enter a new election cycle, are you hopeful that we can do things differently?”
Justin
I’m hopeful we can do things differently. One of the biggest things I want Christians to try to do is understand that people are more than their vote. We tend to turn people into political abstractions, so if you’re voting for that guy, to me your whole existence is about that decision. But t it’s really not the whole of your humanity. And so even when you disagree with someone, even whether it’s a family member – they may be dead wrong on how they voted, or in some of their political perspectives – but they’re still more than that and so don’t see people as political abstractions. People are more than their vote. See it as bigger than that.
Bear
And we know Thanksgiving is around the bend in three weeks, so we, we need to more than Adele to get us through those moments, if you remember that old Saturday Night Live skit. This is kind of a follow up to that. Now this is one of those tough questions. I’m just reading what was sent. Do you think it’s OK for a Christian to be a member and supporter of a political party? The Democratic Party seems to have sold out so completely to its progressive wing. I hate to say it, but how can a Christian in good conscience support most of what’s being advocated in their platform?
Justin
So first I want to say how I look at parties. I don’t really look at parties as something that you put your identity in. So if I go to someone, and I ask them what party they’re in, I’m not going to assume that’s your whole, the whole of your identity. So, I have been a Democrat for quite a bit of time in my life. But really to me it’s a tool, right?
If I go into a meeting full of progressives, and I say I’m a Republican, they’re not going to listen to me, but if I’m in a progressive area and I go in there and say, “Look, we’re all Democrats”, I can actually talk about the sanctity of life in a way that somebody couldn’t if they were from the outside.
Now, is that right of them to have that bias? Maybe not. But I see party as more of a tool. So yes, I think it would be unfaithful of me to be a Democrat and not speak out against abortion and not speak out against the sexual ethic. I think that’s wrong.
But I think people can be in different parties because they may have different emphases. But you need to speak out and challenge your party on the things that they get wrong.
I’m also not the type of person that’s just going to vote for one party. So again, for me, it’s strategic. It’s a tool. It’s not something that I say, “I could care less what party people are in really”, but it’s certainly not something that I put my identity in.
And here’s a way that you can see if your identity is actually in your party: Can someone critique or even insult your favorite politician or your party without you feeling like they insulted you? So today, if you can say anything about the Democratic Party to me, I may agree with you. I may disagree with you. I don’t feel like you attacked me, because that’s not where my identity is.
And that’s what I think Christians need to do. So, whether you’re in the Democratic Party or the Republican, I would hope whoever wrote the question feels this, there’s probably some things the Republican Party does that they don’t like either. Well, then speak out against it. That doesn’t mean that you’re responsible for everything that the party does. You’ve got to speak out against it and not be so tied to it that you can’t hear and see what others are saying.
Bear
Of all people, as followers of Christ, our identity is in Christ, so we should have the spiritual resources to be able to have these kind of conversations. The book, Compassion and Conviction, is just filled with insights on how you do this. There is an exercise we did in our book group where, I forget which chapter it was at, where you say if you’re conservative, evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of that perspective and then do it, putting the other shoes on. And just that skill alone is something that’s so rare today.
Justin
And what Pastor was talking about is, Christians can’t afford to be indoctrinated, and so, what indoctrinated means is that we accept something from any group or whatever without thinking critically about it. So if there’s anybody – a party or an ideology or an influencer – that once they say something, you just accept it, that means you’re indoctrinated. But one way to know that you’re not indoctrinated or to kind of measure that is, can you name 5 to 10 things on your side that you get wrong.
If you can’t list 5 to 10 things that your side gets wrong, you’re probably indoctrinated because I can guarantee there’s more than that, that they actually get wrong. And so those are kind of some exercises that help us say, “OK, even if I think they’re clearly better than the other side, what do we get wrong?” And I’ve got to know that and I’ve got to push back against it.
Bear
Your message to Christians engaging in political conversations is to be civil. listen well to the other side, be humble, things we’ve been talking about. What do you do with those who are complete ideologues who have no intent whatsoever in doing anything other than win the argument and get their way? So, like Thanksgiving, when we’re with Uncle Fred? No, not no. I’m sorry. That just came out, of no relationship to Fred. Uncle Ebenezer.
Justin
So, I’m serious about politics. I obviously focus on it a lot, but it doesn’t need to be the topic of every conversation either, right? So sometimes if they’re really up in arms about it, you can just love them and kind of slowly change the conversation. You don’t have to engage in an argument.
Because what they’re not going to do is change their opinion if you start arguing with them. So sometimes it’s just loving them, saying, “OK, I’ll consider that for next time”, and then, you know, you can just let it go for that moment. Sometimes that’s just what you have to do. But in other instances, one of the tactics that I use is I try to affirm what I can in what the person is saying.
So even if they’re very upset and they’re coming at me, I’m like, “You know what, you’re actually right about that part of it. And we actually get this part of it wrong.” And what that does for the person is it lets them know that you’re not trying to leave this conversation, making them feel stupid. So they’re going to be more likely maybe to admit that they could do some things better, that they got something wrong if you first say, “You know what, you’re right, that’s a very good point. And we get this wrong. But you’ve got a good point”, so try to affirm what you can, don’t lie if it’s something you can’t affirm, then just don’t do it, but if you can affirm someone what they’re saying that that defuses the conversation.
Bear
We were talking last week about this when we, we talked on the phone about how. Has anyone ever been convinced by someone who was yelling at you? Did you ever say, you know what? Yeah, you’re right. Thank you for yelling.
We talked about college students. I referenced them just briefly —
Justin
And what was Uncle was the uncle’s name.
Bear
— Uh, Fred.
Justin
Uncle Fred, Uncle Fred, even Uncle Fred, even.
Bear
Fred, you have a point there.
Justin
Go easy on Uncle Fred this Thanksgiving.
Bear
That’s funny. Talk about something non-controversial like the best football team or something, No fights, right?
We mentioned college students. What would you say to college students today who are protesting against Israel, promoting antisemitism, who are clearly refusing to see the hatred and evil of terrorism? That was an interesting question. I listened to your podcast the other day that you did on Israel and Hamas, so maybe you’ll allude to that.
Justin
I would say especially if they’re Christian, I would say for Christians we have to be impartial, which means we have to look at things clearly. So, if you’re so on the side of Hamas or you’re so against Israel that you can’t see the terrible things that Hamas did, then you’re being partial, right? You’re not seeing things clearly and, and at the end of the day, you’re not being fair and just.
So, I would say for somebody on either side, step out, try to step outside of the talking points. There’s this big tension here, but really pray on it and try to see things as clearly as possible. To deny that what Hamas did was terroristic, that was wrong, you’re taking innocent lives, it’s to me, that’s just wrong. That has to be acknowledged. But I don’t think that’s the only thing that has to be acknowledged. I think we can say OK, as a whole, what could be done better by both sides without creating some type of false equivalence.
Bear
And knowing something of the history of this, I’ll bet most of us, many of us, don’t even know enough of what brought us to this moment to be able to have a civil conversation about what you’re advocating. This is just a follow up as, as we talk you have a great section of the book about political advocacy and protest. Would you say you have all these protests going on right now? Would it be wise to be part of something that would be a counter that, if you felt passionately about it? Or is that going to just throw gasoline on a fire?
Justin
I mean, I think we have the ability to protest and make our voices heard. How you do it is what what matters. So, one thing that you saw in the civil rights movement, there were certain things that were out of bounds. Before you could march and really be a part of the civil rights movement, you had to be trained, you had to understand what they were trying to achieve. You just didn’t go out there and break stuff. And, you know, bust windows and things of that nature. It needs to be redemptive.
So that doesn’t mean that you can’t raise your voice. It means that you shouldn’t be breaking other people’s property and things like that. There’s a way to do it. And Christians need to be aware of that and make sure that it’s It’s constructive because a lot of the, unfortunately, a lot of the protests we see sometimes become destructive. And that’s when Christians need to move away. Because it’s about being heard. It’s not about hurting, you know, necessarily hurting other people.
Bear
Our discussion group last week looked in one of those chapters where you mentioned Dr. Martin Luther King Junior’s specific instructions to those that were part of the marches, and he gave very Christ-like and specific rules or benchmarks. This is how you’re going behave in a hostile place.
Justin
And some of the some of those things you got from Gandhi, but a lot of that was straight out of the Bible, on how to engage. But also remember just like we said before, people who disagree with you get to protest and be heard too. And so, you know, we also have to be impartial in who we’re hearing and who we think has the opportunity to speak up.
Bear
You mentioned in your book that things have always been divisive in politics. You go back to early American history, you know, with Jefferson and Adams, and that it was very divisive. But then you also alluded to the fact that we’re seeing a shift. It seems worse in some way. Why is it so toxic and divisive today? What in your thinking is contributing to this?
Justin
Well, and it’s hard to, you know, when you look at history and all the stuff that our country has gone through, it’s hard to say it’s worse, but it is different, right? When you’re going through things like civil rights movement, slavery, all that stuff, it’s hard to say that it’s worse than some of those things. I mean, even in the 60s, people were bombing all type of, you know, there was a lot going on —
Bear
That’s true, yes.
Justin
— But it is something that’s, it is something that’s really tough. And I think the biggest thing today is, we don’t have a common narrative of what America is at its base and what we’re trying to accomplish. I think that’s one big part of it. And then social media makes it tough too, because people can get away with saying things to others that they wouldn’t say in person. So, when you’re anonymous, people will go a lot further than they would if they actually had to get to know you and be confronted by you. I think that hurts the conversation as well, along with the algorithms and how it moves us toward more and more kind of extreme position.
Bear
No, that’s great. Don’t forget if you have a follow-up and then, I’ll, anybody have a, a question in this part of the conversation.
Audience
Thank you very much for your message. Really appreciate it. The new speaker, Michael Johnson, first week in office. He seems to have a narrative that is kind of trying to pull things together, and he’s doing very well, I think in his biblical views and his political views. What are your thoughts on his first week in office?
Justin
Yeah. I mean, I’ll be honest with you. I’m just getting to know him as well. I’ve been kind of reading up on him. I’m number one, thankful that somebody pulled that, you know, pulled them together and that we actually have leadership in the house. So that’s the first thing I’ll say. But to be the person, I think it does say something to be the person that can actually pull that together, and people could get behind after all that time of not having someone there. So I’ll be honest with you, I don’t know a whole lot about him. I’m sure there’s some things I agree with and some things I disagree with, but we’ll be talking. I want to take a little longer to kind of look up his record and, and see what he’s doing and, we’ll, we’ll talk about it on the Church Politics podcast soon. But I’ll give him credit in that he was able to pull this together. I haven’t heard anything about, you know, any corruption or anything like that from him, from his, you know, from his past up until now, so that’s a plus too. But I I just have to learn more myself about him.
Audience
So you mentioned a message to Garcia, right, which you can imagine a whole bunch of people who work for and around DoD around here, right? It’s a, it’s a commonly handled thing. It’s a really interesting story. I’m curious what you think about how Christians in government and in environments like that, you know, what parts of the faith we should be bringing into that environment? Understanding, right that that we believe this stuff to be authentic and true and essential, but also understanding that in some way, we’re representatives of a much broader range of people and how you think about balancing that.
Justin
I think you know, I think the Bible tells, you know, talks to us about that. I think certainly what you bring to it, you can look at Daniel and others you bring to it, you definitely bring the ethics right to say, hey, there are certain things I believe and there’s a certain level of integrity that I have that I’m not compromising for anyone. Right? But at the same time, to your point, it is government. The government represents everybody, not just Christians, so we’re not bringing all our holiness standards into that, that space and forcing it on and on other people. But I certainly think when it when it comes to this decision where we need to be ethical, we need to be influencers in that regard. We need to say, hey, when we make a decision or we say something, it needs to be true, and we need to be who we represent ourselves to be. And I don’t think that’s any different than any other job, right to, to maintain integrity and, and just a certain level of honesty.
You know, as someone being in politics, I’m thankful I had a, a mentor because you know, it’s hard to be in politics and not somehow be connected or around people that are unethical. It’s just whether it’s a campaign or there, there’s always people around who are probably not going to do the right thing, so you can’t completely avoid it. But what you can do, and a mentor toward this to me is like, if people are going to do something that they know is wrong, that you have represented yourself in such a way that they don’t even bring it to, you know, that they kind of avoid you with it, because they know if you see it, you’re going to say something about it and that that’s just not how you operate.
I think sometimes that’s the best we can do. There are situations where if I ran away from a certain, a certain job or task just because everybody wasn’t perfectly ethical, it would have been a missed opportunity to actually have an influence on it and make it better. So that’s one way to think about it. But I think that’s government job. I think that’s any job. Those are those principles and ethics are something we want to uphold.
Bear
It reminds me of the whole separation of church thing that often gets thrown back in the face of Christians. You know, there, there is a demarcation between what we advocate for in a public space. It’s actually one of the questions here. Often when Christians speak up in favor of pro-life causes, classical biblical views of sexuality or marriage, the other side screams out, “Separation of church and state. You can’t impose your religion on us.” What’s your take on that?
Justin
So, I, I agree that we shouldn’t impose our religion on people, but it’s not that simple. You know, the Bible says, “Thou shall not kill.” Does that mean we shouldn’t have laws against murder? No, that doesn’t. That doesn’t make sense. I think it’s all about the process. Some people would say that, you know, you can’t legislate morals, but the truth of the matter is you can’t avoid it, right. Whether it’s whether it’s something like statutory rape. All of our laws have some value behind them. To me, for Christians is about the process that you go through to show people why they should agree with you on that particular issue. So we can’t just grab the Bible, says the Bible says this, you, you should follow it. We have to be able to articulate it in a way that shows people who aren’t religious who don’t don’t agree with us when it comes to faith, why that’s beneficial to them in general.
And I think where, the places where Christians got caught flat footed, whether it be marriage or on other issues because we hadn’t taken the time to articulate why it should make sense to every, to everyone and not just us based on the book that we believe in. That’s what we have to do. We have to make that articulation and go through the legislative process to persuade people that it’s right not to compel them, that is right.
Bear
That it echoes of uh, Chuck Colson. If you’ve ever read his classic God in Government, which had another title when it was first published, but he, he really drilled down on that to, to the Christians, you know, it’s OK that your, the Bible is the source of your value system, but can you defend that value in other ways beyond just saying “the Bible says.” That’s powerful.
Audience
Kind of a follow up. If you’re in a work situation where the situation is hostile towards Christianity, period, is there ways that engaging that? Because I mean, or do you just disengage if, if there’s just complete hostility if any of that comes up?
Justin
I mean, it’s one of those things where you have to be prayerful. Different people are called to different situations, so God may have put you there because you can handle it and you can be a light in the midst of that darkness. That although there are people that are being hostile toward you, your witness and your example actually pushes back against that. I think it depends on the individual and their calling.
If it’s affecting your health and it’s something that’s really tearing you apart, you may want to consider getting out of there. I don’t know that I can give a general answer because God has called different people to different things, and we just have to be prayerful to see where we’re supposed to be because I’ve been in those situations myself.
Bear
That’s great. Shift to gears a little bit from politics to parenting. Tell us real quick about your family.
Justin
So my wife Summer, we’ve been married for over 10 years and I have three sons. Cooper is 9, Chase is 8, and Crew is 4.
Bear
Cooper. Interesting. There’s, there’s a story there I want to hear about your grandpa. So, the question is: Do you have any specific thoughts for those of us parents who are trying to model compassion and conviction for our young people? That’s a great question.
Justin
As with everything in parenting, it’s something I struggle with and try to get better with myself. So not that I have it mastered necessarily, but one thing I try to do, if I see something on television or where, you know, something comes up and I’m like, “That’s not based on biblical doctrine, that’s not right. God doesn’t agree with that lifestyle. God doesn’t agree with what they’re doing right there.” I want to make that clear, right?
Kids aren’t always great with nuance, so sometimes you have to be very clear. This is not what we’re supposed to do. But I also want to follow that up with, How do we love them? And that doesn’t mean that we hate this person or we would be mean to them. Actually, we would defend them, right? So it’s here’s what God said is right, but how God also said we have to love people and be there for them. How would we also do that in the midst of this?
That means if we’re at school, we don’t make fun of people we don’t mistreat people. We can say something is wrong, but guess what? There’s stuff that we do wrong too. Right? So there’s the conviction of what God has to say. There’s compassion in how we treat people, but also the humility of knowing that you’re not perfect either. I try to mix that into our conversations because as we all know, just watching television or anything, you’re going to run into things that you have to explain to your kids. And that for me has been a helpful way to get through it.
Bear
We tried to train our daughter with a game called Spot the Lie. We’d be watching TV when she was younger and watching commercials. And we said, Hey, let’s spot the lie in this, Hannah. And, and she got to where she was pretty good at that, being able to see it. But, but the second part of that is so important. And, and I think we did a less of a good job with that. I mean, Hannah’s fine now, but working in Hollywood. You’d be proud of Hannah. She’s in her 30s now and loves the Lord, serving God in the belly of the beast. And so she’s dealing all the time with Hollywood types who have no sharing of the Christian worldview, but, I just love that second-half of that. It was. It was your message to us, you know to declare the message, receive the message.
Another one. Do you have suggestions for parents who are struggling with how best to educate their kids today? Public school, private school, home schooling options are available today. This is a tough, tough climate for. You’re in it right now.
Justin
It’s very difficult and it depends on where you’re at, I mean different cities, different school districts have different issues. There are some places where you’re OK in a public school, many especially in, you know, in certain areas, more progressive areas, are really tough to, to keep your kid there. Some people, it depends on your resources. Do you have the resources to do it?
I think regardless of the situation, just being attentive to what they’re learning, asking them what they’re learning. One thing that I thought about when my kids were in public school was I was going to put together and organize a kind of a prayer group of parents, parents who prayed. But actually it was also going to function as a group that addresses the teachers or addresses the school board, to say, “Hey, we want to know what they’re learning, what’s going on.”
I can’t emphasize enough, you have to just really be attentive to what they’re bringing home, what they’re learning. And it’s tough. But I think the best way to do it is to not try to do it by yourself. If there are other Christian parents, try to get together with them because they may hear something or you may hear something.
And then as you address those who are in authority, whether it be teachers or the school board or whatever, don’t just do it from an adversarial point of view. In fact, I would probably want to start from a point of view of how can we be helpful. We’re here. Let them know you’re there. Let them know you’re there to help with resources or whatever. And then if you have to address something, there already is a kind of established relationship, that we’re not here just to hold you accountable in negative ways. We want to be helpful, but we are paying attention.
And I think it goes a long way to have even if it was 10 parents in a school to have a group of 10 parents who are paying attention and they know you’re paying attention. That goes a long way. And so I think that’s one way to handle it for people who can’t necessarily get in a private school. I mean, even in a private school, that’s just one way to handle it, so that they know you’re paying attention.
Bear
We really appreciate the practical wisdom that you, you have in your message, Justin. I mean, these are great, great tips and things to think about.
Audience
Actually, bringing it back to politics. Sorry. Two party system versus multi-party system. Obviously there’s been a lot, especially recently, it always ebbs and flows throughout history, but just want to get your thoughts on the importance of two party system or the importance of a multi-party system, what your thoughts were.
Justin
Honestly, I would love to get rid of what people are calling the duopoly, which is the two party system that I just think in so many ways they’re not forced to listen to us all they’re supposed to do is polarize us and tell us how bad the other side is. So we’re like, OK, I’ll take whatever you give me because they’re so bad. I think that’s a terrible way to do politics, but that’s just where we’re at right now. I would love for there to be 5 parties.
It’s just very difficult because [of the way] our system is set up. It’s always been a two party system. It’s kind of set up to be a two, it makes it difficult to, to create another party and people have tried it. There’s been a little bit success, but not great success. So, I would love to see it. The American Solidarity Party, I think they’re excellent. I love their platform. It’s just really tough. So, I think people should keep trying, but I think in the meantime, we don’t necessarily have to have another party.
If we look at it, there are biblical Christians, a critical mass of biblical Christians on both sides of the aisle. If we were to kind of say, Hey, we’re all Christians and we don’t care what our party says, we’re going to work together on these six items. If even if we disagree on other stuff, we’re going to work together on these six items, we can change the whole political landscape. If we were to say, I don’t care about your party on these things, we’re together because we’re Christians and they’re based on Christian principles – hat changes things without changing the parties, right? If we’re a little more flexible and willing to work together, so would love to see more parties. I don’t think it’s necessary, for us to have a greater impact on, on politics.
Bear
And one of the things that that Justin, you warned about again and again in the book though is that there is no one Christian political platform. The Bible does not advocate a particular form of government. That’s a jarring statement for some people. But you’re absolutely right. The encouraging of dialogue, like on immigration, the Bible says, “Care for the immigrant and the refugee.” It just doesn’t tell you how. So, there’s no one approach. That’s why we have to be able to come together and have a conversation.
Justin
Right.
Audience
So, the term racial reconciliation seemed to become a, a divisive issue. Just curious what you think the Christian and biblical perspective on the topic is?
Justin
I think that we’re supposed to be one. We should not, and I don’t know that that means every church has to be perfectly diverse. Some people say that it means every church has to have every…and I don’t, maybe. Maybe that works for some churches, but I think what it does mean is that even churches that are primarily one culture need to be coming together and need to be communicating. And we have a long history in this country that has to be addressed.
And what hurts, what frustrates me a little bit is when Christian leaders and Christian influencers address it how the world addresses it. So, I come into your church – and I care about racial reconciliation, I care about the racism in America’s past – but I can’t come to you just based off the language and the theories of secular scholars and expect you to accept it, right? It needs to be biblically based.
And the same thing for people on the more conservative side. You can’t just accept what a conservative influencer says says about that and bring that into to the church without the compassion and the truth that God calls for us.
So what I want to see from Christians is to address this issue from a leadership position and not just repeating what other people have said. (our favorite influencers that says what we want to hear.) We have an obligation to come together. We have an obligation to deal and reckon with the past that on racial terms is really, really bad. I mean, what people don’t realize is Jim Crow ended less than 60 years ago. It wasn’t that long ago. We have to deal with that. And in order to deal with that, we have to set aside our pride and set aside our narratives and deal with it in love and truth. And so it’s something that that we have to do. But on the Bible’s terms, not on the world’s terms, which means we can’t deny what’s happened. But we also can’t get into this kind of identitarianism that I think tears us apart as well.
Bear
That’s good. BridgeWay has a strong desire to live up to our name and build bridges. That’s one of the things that impressed me about the church when we came a couple of years ago. And as a passion of mine, I’ve started some relationships with pastors from ethnic churches around DC and. —
Justin
Great. Good to hear.
Bear
— and just baby steps forward. And I, I sense that’s what you’re saying. Just start building those bridges.
Justin
Little relationships. About relationship and fellowship and you can get to other things as time goes on.
Bear
Any other follow up questions?
Audience
What do you think is the best way to love the LGBT community and bring them to Christ?
Justin
That’s a great question. The first place I start with that is: If you’re not willing to enter that conversation with a broken heart, then I don’t think you’re willing to enter it. Because the church, and so not everybody, but in many ways, the church has hurt people. Not because the doctrine was wrong. I think the doctrine was right, but because we didn’t have the compassion.
So you had people who grew up in churches and they found out they were same-sex attracted. They get kicked out the church and nobody shows them that God loves you, even if you have feelings that you can’t explain or aren’t, aren’t necessarily in line with, with, with what the Gospel says.
That happened it many times where people were dying of HIV or something like that, and all we had was fire and brimstone, when they needed love. So, first and foremost we have to enter into that conversation. We need to lament. Some of us need to repent. I can’t tell you if you need to repent, but some of us need to repent and how we’ve handled that. We need to and, and we need to be, we need to have contrition, right? We need to be sorrowful. We need to say, “No, I got this wrong. I’m sorry.”
That’s the first step, and I think there’s too many Christians that are saying, “No, I’m right. So it doesn’t matter how I say I’m right. That’s the wrong thing. That’s it.” That’s not. That’s not Christian. That’s not going to get us anywhere. So that’s the first thing.
But I do think we still have to stand on doctrine to say, hey, this is right and then again explain why. We don’t do a great job explaining God’s design and why that makes sense, and the truth of the matter is you can look, nobody’s saying you can’t love somebody. They’re just saying that in certain relationships that love doesn’t come with sex.
Right? I mean that, that’s the message. And people don’t necessarily see that. So, the whole you know, love is love. No, the greatest kind of love has nothing to do with that type of stuff with physical love, right? We all can do that. But we have to stand on doctrine, we. But we also have to be very compassionate, and I think, and one of the things that AND campaign has done, even support making sure people aren’t discriminated against in their job and housing and banking. I think that’s important. To say: I don’t have to agree with you to say you shouldn’t be mistreated and understand that.
And here’s the last thing: this is not the only sin either. And when we have churches that have sexual sin in them and make that sin bigger than the other sexual sins in the church, that’s wrong. And that’s hypocritical. And the last thing I’ll say is understand too, that some of these angry activists that you see that are lashing out at the church and all this. Some of that stuff we created. Some of that is a mirror staring back out at us on what we did to people.
Be willing to accept that with humility, but at the same time, we know that God has a design and it helps for the flourishing for us to stand on that design and the doctrine.
Bear
I appreciate those words so much. And, and this we talked about earlier, this generation just being ripe for the gospel. If we can figure this out, how to start with love and, and come as Jesus did with grace and truth.
Anybody else? Our time is winding up.
Here’s a quick question for you. You, you say in your book couple of times: Put the witness before the win. Explain that I, I like it. I know where you’re going with that. But just elaborate a little bit.
Justin
So I’m a political strategist. You never strategize to, to lose, right? So Christians, because we’re dealing with life or death issues. We want to win. We want good policies. We want people to flourish because we’ve set society up in a way that gives them that opportunity. We want to win. Take that seriously, however, as a Christian, our witness has to be more important than winning.
So in situations where we can have a great witness, meaning our message, what people see from us when they hear us, when they see our actions, what’s the message that’s being sent? That’s our witness. That is more important than winning. So when in conflict, when I can either be truthful, I can be loving, or I can win and lie and mistreat people, I have to choose the witness over winning. And I think some of Christianity’s biggest mistakes, the church’s biggest mistakes is when we chose winning over the witness. We’ve got to believe that being faithful, God is going to bless us and it’s the right thing to do. Even if we lose, you know, lose on a policy or something like that. We’ve got to do it the right way.
Bear
So many that are in the church that, you know this is, this is the, the election above all elections, if we lose this it’s, it’s Armageddon and, and that is where’s our faith where’s our trust?
Justin
Yeah, and some elections are very important, but what’s more important is the spirit of what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, and we’re glorifying God. We could win a whole bunch of stuff and completely not glorify God and really lose credibility for the church. And I think we’ve seen that happen.
Bear
Question for those online. What are ways we can support the AND campaign?
Justin
I would just say #1, we have the Church Politics podcast, so tune in to that. Tell your friends about the Church Politics podcast. We appreciate that. Share our content. So just like Caroline, the book, all those things. Sharing the book. All those things are very helpful to us. And then if you can, you can go on our, you can go on our website and give, so that’s always helpful too.
Bear
There were red Frisbees going around the room, you know, a couple of months ago with that book.
Justin
I love it. I love it.
Bear
You’re, you draw part of your support from Patreon, I believe is that still?
Justin
Yeah, patreon.com. If you want to support the patreon.com/churchpolitics if you want to support the podcast specifically.
Bear
And how is your message being received? How can we pray for you? You’re going, you’re going into the front lines of a of a cultural battle. And how can we pray for you, Justin?
Justin
I think #1 just discernment, and also that we you know that, you know, I always say that, you know, the, the day we have to compromise the integrity of organizations is the, the day that the organization shouldn’t exist. So just, just, just praying that we always keep to that, that we have the discernment to make good decisions, and just that we’re, you know, that we’re heard for what we’re actually saying and not kind of summarily dismissed.
Audience
So one of the questions that you sent the mission team that I really pinged on was how Justin, would you encourage us as, how we are culturally not a diverse church, to connect with other churches in the area that are a little bit more culturally diverse, I suppose, is the best way.
Bear
Do you think when it comes to race, we can get anywhere close to Jesus’s vision for the church or, or do we have to just wait till eternity? I sense some cynicism in the question, but.
Justin
So as far as connecting with other churches: I think service events are always good for that, so if they’re throwing a service event, go and serve with them right? Maybe they’re feeding someone in the community, maybe they’re cleaning up the community. Do it with them, so kind of know what other churches are doing in the area, and join them and then invite them to, to things that you’re doing. Again. It’s for me, service fellowship, those are the best ways to connect with people who may be coming from a different culture.
Show them love. Show them you’re willing to serve with them and serve them. And I think that goes a long way. And then just be patient. Not going in, trying to correct them or feeling like they need to correct you all the time. Just going in there trying to, trying to get to know people. I think that goes a long way….Just remember, if there’s going be hope for the world to get over this stuff, Christians got to be able to get over it. We have so much in common and great same great commandment, the same Great Commission, same savior. We have a lot in common and we allow people that are outsiders to, to the church, pull us apart. So one thing I always say communicate with each other too many times, Christians communicate through intermediaries who aren’t even Christian. Communicate to each other and reach out to each other cause we have a lot in common.